Anatasiya Zaritska, a member of the HQCJ: "The competition to the Anti-corruption Bureau will surely be public"

How will be formed the Public Council of International Experts, which should help to select the judges for the Anti-corruption court? When will the contest begin and how long will it take? How is the process of clearing the court corpus, held in the country now, and why are the judges outraged with the qualification assessment? These and many other questions were answered by Anastasiya Zaritska, a member of the High Qualification Commission of Judges of Ukraine, in her interview to “Censor.NET” (T. Bodnya).

A LOT WILL DEPEND ON HOW LONG WILL TAKE THE SPECIAL SCREENING OF THE CANDIDATES WHICH IS CONDUCTED BY NEARLY 20 PUBLIC AUTHORITIES

- When will the contest for the position of judges of the anti-corruption court begin? What are its peculiar features? Will it differ from the contest to the Supreme Court?

-The contest may be announced in September. This issue is still under consideration. The contest to the anti-corruption court will necessarily be public, so that the public could also evaluate the candidates. The participants of the contest should go through the qualification assessment, which includes an exam (tests and practical assignments), a psychological test and interviews with a psychologist, as well as an interview on the results of the study file with the members of the HQCJ. A peculiar feature will be that the process will also involve the Public Council of international experts. The Commission already has some extremely important experience in holding a contest to the Supreme Court. The Commission has a test base, which needs to be finalized and improved, with consideration of the specifics of this court. A part of practical tasks already exists. The Commission is aware of how to organize the process of qualification assessment, so they are ready for this process.

– Are there plans to put a time frame on the contest?

– According to law, the Supreme Anti-corruption Court shall be formed within a year from the day it enters its powers, which is until the summer of 2019. You may predict that conducting it may be fast, but you may also analyze how long took the contest to the Supreme Court in order to understand the complexity of procedures. The latter lasted for 9 months, provided that the commission was busy holding it only. Now, we are going to carry out simultaneously the selection of judges, the qualification assessment of the entire judiciary corpus, the contest to the Supreme Court on Intellectual Property, next in turn will be the second contest to the Supreme Court and the contest to the Supreme Anti-corruption Court. One should remember this before making predictions as for the duration of the latter contest. The process of conducting a contest for the future judges of this court may be delayed due to the formation of the Public Council of international experts. A lot will depend on the duration of special screening of candidates, which is conducted by nearly 20 public authorities.

– Who is going to form the Public Council of International Experts? What will be the difference between the cooperation of the HQCJ with this council, and the work with the Public Council of Integrity?

– The contest for the positions of anti-corruption judges will be conducted by the HQCJU, but checking the compliance of candidates with the criteria of integrity and professional ethics will be held not by the Civic Council for Integrity but an especially created Public Council of International Experts. This is a collateral authority, which is formed for a term of six years by the High Qualification Commission of Judges of Ukraine to assist it in the preparation of the decisions on the appointment to the positions of judges of the Supreme Anti-corruption Court. The Public Council of International Experts will fulfill its duties and be comprised of six members, appointed exclusively on the basis of proposals from international organizations, which Ukraine co-operates with in the area of prevention and counteraction to corruption in accordance with international treaties.

–The new Supreme Court has been working since December 15 last year. Where were transferred the judges who previously worked in the high specialized courts, are there not any no longer?

– According to law, without contest the judges can be transferred by the HQCJ to the court of the same or lower levels. Since there are no courts of the same level left any longer, so – to the courts of a lower level. This is a very painful issue, because in best case scenario they can take a vacancy in the courts of appeals. And even in different regions of the country, and not in Kiev only, where they lived and worked for many years. It is very difficult for judges to perceive that the region may change, but we are complying with the law when we offer this to them and then make a consecutive decision.

– Do you offer a choice of vacancies? Or do you immediately offer only one option, already selected by the commission?

– We may say that immediately. Although the liquidation procedures for higher specialized courts have not been finalized yet, it is already obvious that everybody who worked there before should find new work places. Not everyone transfers to the courts of appeal, some candidates apply to vacancies of the first instance. Some said that there was no fundamental difference for them. We were a bit surprised with these persons, because some do not even want to go to appeal. They go there, so to speak, stepping over themselves. Among them are the persons who applied to the contest to the Supreme Court, but did not get enough score to be among the thirty winners. Some of them failed the test, some did not score enough on the other criteria, including integrity and professional ethics.

– How can they go on working in general?

This conclusion was made within the framework of the relevant contest and by itself it could not affect the career ladder of a judge. We emphasised on this.

– How many persons have already changed their jobs?

-This issue has mainly been solved for the former judges of the Supreme Economic Court, they have already been distributed, we provided our recommendations. The High Council of Justice will be working from now on. Almost the same situation with regard to the judges of the Supreme Administrative Court. For most of them, the issue of their transfer has been resolved. Although, there are judges, who have submitted inquiries to postpone this consideration for different reasons. This issue is complicated. For someone it is health issues that make it impossible to move, for others it is age, someone is asking to stay where it is more convenient, and as a rule, it is in Kiev. But in Kiev, the availability of vacancies is an issue. At the same time, other regions are in high demand of the specialists of this level. So, we refer them to where there is an urgent need. There are courts, that have currently 40 vacancies.

JUDGES ARE ESPECIALLY AFRAID OF PSYCHOLOGICAL TESTS FOR SOME REASON

– At present the qualification assessment is taking place. Many of those who I talked to you get offended with a few moments in this process. Some say: "I have been working for many years, I have only a small percentage of cancelled decisions. Doesn’t it prove the level of my qualification?" Second, what they are offended with is a huge workload that is intensified with the fact that those who sometimes work until midnight, then have to get ready for tests at night. And a third thing that everyone is worried about is the increase of wages. It turns out that the process of qualification assessment is time consuming. But the wages are increased only for those who have already finalized it. In your opinion, is this assessment worth so much effort and how well it is justified?

– We’ve turned out to be in a situation in which, in my opinion, we could not do without a procedure of qualification assessment, which we are currently conducting. Because everyone believed that once a person has been working as a judge for a certain number of years, they already know everything and skillfully do everything well. But something went wrong, since the society made a requirement to let everyone go in order to clear the judicial system. You also heard this: from scratch! And only then recruit the new ones. I was a bit surprised when those who talked about it, do not understand the process of judge training in general. How can you say that? If you release, what are you going to do during this period? It takes time to prepare the judge. On April 3, 2017 HQCJ announced the selection to a position of judge. It's been a year, but only a part of them are studying. The rest have gone through certain stages and are waiting for their turn. And the moment when they begin to work as judges will not come too soon. Therefore, it was impossible to let everyone go and recruit new people. The contest to the Supreme Court is a real result of a large-scale judicial reform and a large contribution of the commission to the system of measures to implement it. The qualification assessment of all judges of Ukraine that commenced on October 20, 2017, still continues. The examination of 5200 judges (courts) for the compliance with the occupied position, that takes into account the possible consequences of inadequate preparation for qualification assessment, is a more difficult measure for the commission than a contest to the Supreme Court, but it is entirely possible for the judges. Equally important is a competitive selection of judges for the 21 positions of judges of the High Specialized Court on Intellectual Property, that returns Ukraine back to civilized protection of intellectual property rights.

– Why was the assessment process started so late? If it had been done earlier, it would have probably come to an end. What were you waiting for?

– If you can remember, we have already conducted an initial qualification assessment. This was by law, adopted in 2015. It was simpler than the one we are conducting now. In particular, there was no psychological testing, nor did it foresee the release of judges, as it does now. The current assessment became possible to conduct only when the Law on Judiciary entered into force in June 2016, but as you may know, it was enacted at the end of September, and we immediately got down to upgrading the court of highest instance. Back then in 2015, when we were deciding on the judges of which instances would be the first to go through assessment, nobody volunteered. Everybody was saying: we do not need it. What kind of exams? Then a volitional decision was made to start with the judges of courts of appeal. And when they passed the assessment, they started receiving the new, higher salary. Undoubtedly, this makes angry those, who are still waiting for their turn, as everyone wants the increase. And they will have it, as soon as they pass the qualification assessment. It is clear that it is stressful for people. The judges are especially afraid of psychological tests for an unknown reason. Though there's nothing to be afraid of here. These tests are formed so that you need to respond quickly without thinking, as there is no predefined answer to these questions. There may be the same questions, but they are formulated differently. Therefore, there may be different answers. When a person undergoing a test is trying to come up with the right answers, it is assessed accordingly and the specialists-psychologists put down that such a test is not valid. Then the level of competence is assessed on the results of an interview with a psychologist and a general conclusion on the results of testing is passed further to the commission.

– Do the psychological tests affect the assessment of a judge?

– The total score is affected by the entire picture. This includes the assessment of professional activity, workload, the quality of work. Psychological testing is not the main and determining factor, although its results are not one of the least important indicators in the overall assessment of a judge … I also talk to judges, and I know that it is difficult for them to prepare for tests. Moreover, when a person is at work till late. Expecting the results is even harder. Let me tell you how this process is taking place. The first two hours the judges do a law test, and then they write a written assignment. At the end of the working day, they go home and expect for the result. They wait for a long time. As the test results are given by a computer by the end of the day, the practical assignments are checked by the members of the Commission, and this is time consuming. The work schedule of in the commission is quite tense. We have meetings almost every day because of the interviews! Only on Thursday there isn’t any, on this day everyone checks the assignments. They come to work earlier, many people are at work already at seven. Oh, if you ever come and see us in the morning! Well, actually, why will you need it?

– What are the results of the interviews?

– By the way, they are not always high. Although, most of them are positive. Still there is also misunderstanding, stress and despair, we have different situations.

– Do you often come across scandals?

– No, they do not make scandals at all. Well, at least, we, as the members of the commission, do not see them. Although the secretariat staff who support the organization of this whole process complain that some judges do not deal with them very delicately.

– When the score for practical assignment is given, can the commission members who check them, affect the result? For example, would you, if some of your acquaintances asked for a score correction?

– At this stage, the judges must write the court decision of the relevant instance and relevant specialization. Some write a criminal one, some - a civilian, some write a verdict, some write a ruling, some – a resolution. The assignments were developed by specialists on the basis of already solved cases that is practical assignments are not made artificially. The commission members cannot influence and somehow over-evaluate someone's assessment, firstly because the assignments are encoded, none in the commission knows who is the author of this or that work. Secondly, this simply cannot happen. Although, sometimes I would like to ask some of the authors: "Oh, my Goodness, what were you writing?"

– What is your opinion about the fact that the Public Council of Integrity has stopped working with the Commission?

– It is a painful issue, I would not want to talk about it.

– But it is very important and it needs to be talked about for the sake of public confidence in those who are assessed. Doesn’t the Commission receive any conclusions from the PC any longer? Can you handle the procedure without them?

– Formally we can. But you should understand, in the end, the duty of the members of the council is to give their conclusions. They are called upon to help the commission to solve all these issues. The Public Council of Integrity gave us part of the conclusions in the beginning. We gave them an appropriate evaluation, there the form in which they were submitted is questionable. We informed about that and postponed all the cases on which these conclusions were made. We announced a break on them and asked the PCI a lot and on camera to correct them, in each case, and we have made these conclusions into documents, as it is required by the rules of the commission, and then we would continue working with them. But this has not happened yet, and we are waiting, but I would like to say that we verify most facts, highlighted in the conclusion, anyway. Because they are taken from open sources or from a judge’s file. We similarly find information on judge, look into both declarations and social networks, and we learn what people say about them. We still looked though those conclusions that the PCI did not transfer to us, but simply left on their site. We also asked the judges: you should also open and see everything, which is there about you. So, if you consider it necessary, you can give an explanation to the PCI. And give us the explanation of the issues that the Council has violated. Now they have stopped hanging out the conclusions on their site.

– What about the break, which is announces on cases, where the conclusions have been made, will it last long?

– So far, personally I cannot answer this question: it will be decided by the commission as a collegiate body. But I sincerely hope for responsible cooperation.

– Who has better results: young judges or those who have many years of experience?

– It is difficult for me to analyze, because we do not see who answers and how. I will repeat myself: the assignments are encoded. But I was impressed by one of the interview. Among the judges working in the east there is a woman who would be 65 years old in a few months, but she was undergoing the qualification assessment and passed the exam successfully. At the interview, we were wondering what made her risk so much, as she could simply retire. She says that she could have refused, but all her team were preparing, they joined their efforts, shared all questions among all and discussed them. How could she be outside this process? They were her staff. So, she came to take an exam together with everyone. She passed it all successfully, she managed to do everything and now is relieved and she will resign.

**THERE ARE WEALTHY JUDGES, THERE ARE POOR JUDGES REGARDLESS OF THE JURISDICTION

– What impressed you most in the judge's file?**

– I see, you want to hear about posh cars, expensive mansions, and so on. But most of the colleagues, especially women who raise their kids themselves, have cars from 1996-1998. They have neither huge income, nor flights abroad. There, in the file there is information from which you can see (you must know it) who went and where they were crossing the border. Not many took flights, most of them drove somewhere. Those who live and work in the western regions of the country say that they abroad when they go for food or pharmaceuticals and on vacation. You can see each hour and minute in a file. There are also those that have not taken any flights, anywhere, never, especially, women who live on their own. Among judges you can also see the owners of mansions and luxury cars. The task of society, and ours in particular is to find them but not to blow upon all of them equally. By the way, many judges have loans. They can be different: there are loans for cars, for housing, there are small ones. A question arises, if it was not possible to do without it? We asked one judge: "15 thousand - what is this loan for?" First, she got confused, then replied, "It is for teeth treatment, I had to have implants, so I had to take a loan." Apparently, the judges need to be paid adequately so that they would not think how to pay for teeth treatment or for vacation in let’s say Turkey or Egypt.

– When we started to analyze how the judges live, then the thought that prevailed in society, was confirmed: the richest are the judges who worked in economic courts. We came exactly from the economic court. What area of the city is your apartment in?

– It is difficult to answer this question without a prior target-oriented analysis. I did not study this issue. There are wealthy judges, there are poor ones, regardless of jurisdiction. I live in Troyeschyna, in a two-room apartment. I have not succeeded ... I drive a car of 2004. I love it, we are aging together and we feel comfortable. The cars that are in my family have been bought second hand. So far, neither me nor my sons have bought a car from a the car salon.

– What do they do? Are they lawyers too?

– Yes, but one of them practices law, he is an advocate, the other does not. The elder son worked as a judge for 12 years. In 2013, he resigned by himself, on his 13th year he said: “enough!” There was also the change of generations, including the one in the judiciary system. The younger ones came, they had a slightly different attitude to work.

– Are they more frivolous, you think?

– It would probably be wrong to apply the word “frivolous” to judges. And I am afraid to generalize somehow and refer everybody to one category saying that they are not very conscientious about their work. Now we are holding the interviews, we are angry with those who had many cancellations. Because, although a cancellation is foreseen by law, it is a flaw in work. I still remember all my cases, the decisions on which were canceled, for the entire period of my work. When I worked as a judge my canceled decisions for the entire period of work could be counted on fingers. And that is how most judges worked at that time. Now we are facing with the fact that some judges have a lot of cancellations. And the attitude of judges to this is simpler: they say, that not only them have cancellations but their colleagues also, after all, there is a higher instance, so, they will sort it out. What an attitude. And it hurts me that for judges, excuse the repetition, it does not hurt about the authoritativeness of the judicial system because of the quality of their work. Using the figures, now we can sometimes calculate 15% of cancellations for one judge, and this is too many.

– Have you had such decisions, which you regretted about later?

– No, I haven’t. Maybe, because those were civil cases. Since 1993 I was in the appeal (a regional court at that time), since 2007 - in the supreme court. And this is the case when in front of you there are court decisions of previous instances, you have to study everything and say if they have done it right or not. So, already being a judge of an economic court, I did not take initial decisions that could be somehow decisive in business. I could have remembered something but that will take some digging in memory. However, now I do not have this possibility, nor there is a way to look over decisions. But the judges who listen to criminal cases would always have an answer to this question. I was hearing them from 1984 to 1993. There were criminal cases of different complexity. At first instance, I was hearing cases about murder, but that was the murder without aggravating circumstances and the article did not envisage a death penalty. The severest punishment was 15 years. We called them simpler - domestic murders that happened on the ground of some of hostile relationships. My approach to work was always the following: if a law states that there is a presumption of innocence, then until I understand everything and put down that the accused is guilty, he would be is the same person like the rest of the others. In the process of case trial, I see that my purely human task is to them that they receive the 8 years imprisonment not because the judge is bad or the judge wants this, but because they were guilty. As it was them who committed the crime. I remember one case when a man was convicted of rape. And then I was told that he wrote that his mother died at the same time when he was convicted and that Zaritska was to blame because she did not make out that it was not rape but voluntary relationships. In criminal cases, in contrast to economic and civilian, if I had an opportunity to see them, I could really remember something. Typically, are remembered the severest cases. Then I see those people, I see the eyes of those who are behind bars, and those who are wearing a black kerchief somewhere next to the door ...

– When you were working, there was still a death penalty. Did you come across cases like these?

– A death penalty as a punishment was provided for particularly severe crimes (such as murder with aggravating circumstances). Such cases were under the jurisdiction of regional courts. When in 1993 I was elected a judge of the regional court, I agreed to a proposal to work in a civilian board. As for criminal cases, during my work in the regional court I had to deal with rather complicated cases. The judges know how difficult it is. Even against their own will a judge experiences certain events during a case hearing, feeling everything in their soul. It never happens that you would come in the morning and by the evening you made a verdict. No, the case is under consideration for a long time, the circumstances are clarified in detail, the interruptions for additional examinations are announced, other cases are in hearing. The individual is taken to a detention facility, then delivered back and you work with them again. And then comes -the verdict. You are working on it day and night, it does not leave you. You are thinking and writing. The one who is on a seat of convicts has one position only - to defend themselves. On the other hand are the people with trouble, with grief, they have their own position - to punish the offender to the maximum. So, a judge has to perceive it all, to make it out and make a verdict, so that it is legal and fair to the maximum, so that their soul would not be burdened by someone's extra years. It was difficult, but I think that I managed.

– You were a photographer, how did it turn out that you went to study for a judge?

– Yes, my first degree and work were related to photography. I really liked it. I was professionally engaged in photography for 10 years. I got my education in this profession at Kyiv Polygraphic College № 6 and at the Republican Technological College with a qualification "Phototechnics". My elder brother got his higher degree in law in 1965 and worked as a prosecutor. Like him I wanted to get my degree in law but he talked me out of it, saying that I could not even imagine how hard it would be to work in this system for a woman with a family. Like, what kind of lawyer are you at a responsible work, if you are a woman?! Therefore, perhaps, I started doing what I liked. But, as you can see, the fate disposed differently and I became a lawyer.

– You are not the only creative person in the family, does your grand-daughter do sing?

– Yes, Sasha, she does. And I really appreciate it. At least for the fact that she has proven to everyone that she would not make a good lawyer.

– Was she a lawyer?

– She studied in the Law Academy...

– I heard her songs, she can sing very well. Does she write songs by herself?

– No, she doesn’t. Songs and clips are created by professionals who have skills in this. Her first album has already been presented. She has been singing professionally a little longer than a year.

– How did it turn out that Olexandra decided to go to the "X-factor"

– She studied at the Faculty of Law. She used to say that she would not become a lawyer, she was not interested. Her father hoped she would help him in his advocacy. We all believe that our work is the most interesting. But she was singing, took part in the castings. Somewhere she succeeded, somewhere she failed. She sang at The Voice of the Country, but did not come to the final. She got to the "X factor" from the third time. During one of the castings, held by a producing company "Mama-music", she succeeded. And now she has a contract with this company.

– Are you on Facebook, by the way?

– No, I am not, am not even registered. I can just look through what is there from time to time.

– What are you following?

– Only her team KAZKA, because it is very important to me. And I have to know how she moves, what she is wearing, what is her makeup like.

– Do you give her some advice?

– If anybody followed them! But I am not offended – they have their own life.

– How many grandchildren do you have?

– Five, all are girls. Three of them are students, one is a schoolgirl, – and Olexandra.

– Do you like her songs?

– I have my favorite one. I tell her: "Sasha, the song "Was crying" is the best for both the words and music.

– How do you relieve stress with this crazy work schedule?

– At this age, you sometimes think if this something that you would like to relieve stress with would not take away your time. By time I mean life. You start think who knows how much of this life you have to do this or that. For example, I really love making puzzles. I have one among them, which was kind of gifted to me with irony it has 24 thousand pieces. They can neither be laid nor spread, nor can they be hanged. But I really want to make it! I have a big desire! I have been making it for 4 years, I have not completed it yet. I spread it over the floor. So it is always lying there under a carpet. So, when I want, like you are saying, to relax a bit, I throw a few cushions on the floor and already there on my knees, or anyhow I make it. There is no more effective way of calming myself down. Speaking of reading, I do worry what I am reading about. If I read, let’s say, some psychological literature, then I apply it to myself, I think it over, you see, as I read it for a reason. I also love movies. Sometimes I can watch a series just to watch the actors play.

– The judicial reform is like a puzzle painting of yours. Years are passing by, but it does not make up…

– I am convinced, we will make it. I think the judges were sleeping. Each of them was doing their own job, and he was not interested who was saying what. Until something started somewhere ...

– Were they woken up?

– I think so. Even the fact that they had to study these tests is already awakening. They will begin to respect themselves more after they have done all this. Each of them will get out and say: I did it. And this is good. And will get better money. Most importantly, it will affect the quality of their work. And on what we are doing today in general by raising this system.

T. Bodnya for Censor.NET